Behind The Pixel: Closing The Animation Communication Gap

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I have a a tissue issue.

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A tissue issue?

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You know, that was one of our bad ideas a long time ago.

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I think we shared it. The tissue issue?

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I think so.

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That was the the finding...

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tissues in the...

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I mean... scanning for tissues
in your smart washing machine.

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Yeah, it's a terrible name, but the idea is interesting because...

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Because I think our devices
are getting smarter,

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you know, and now with A.I.

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I think you could probably do this pretty easily.

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Uh, scan your clothes and find things in it that shouldn't be there, like tissues.

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The amount of things
that I don't need to have

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more technology put into
it is insurmountable.

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Like I don't need it.

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I'm sure other people can agree
and other people are like, you know what?

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No, embrace it, like technology and wifi in washers everywhere.

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Yeah, it just. Yeah.

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Total side tangent. Hello! Hello.

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How are you?

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I'm good. How are you? I'm good. I think...

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I would say I'm struggling with podcast scheduling.

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Yes, we're doing our best.

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We're doing our best.

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We’re actually recording this a couple of weeks.

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I think after our
original interview. I think weeks.

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We we had for some transparency,

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We recorded a wonderful podcast, which we'll talk about in a moment,

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And then completely forgot

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or ran out of time to record the intro
that we usually do right here.

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And so then it got put to the wayside
with all the projects that we had.

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So here we are,
we're in a totally different location

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we’re in different clothes.

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The video's going to look really different.

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Um, but it's... I am still very delighted
to talk about this conversation

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that we had and get it out
because it was so good and so informative.

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And so let's, let's get into it.

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So we sat down with Rachel Murray,

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She is the co-CEO of She+ Geeks Out
or She Plus

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Geeks out, as you'll see
it, written in a lot of places.

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And she's been running the business
for about ten years now.

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A little over ten years.

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They just celebrated ten years last year.

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And in 2023, which is wonderful.

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And they are in the space
of abolishing inequity in the workplace.

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So she does a lot of work
on, like many CEOs,

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she's wearing many different hats
working on, you know, H.R.

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and tech and finance and operations
and everything in between.

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I think her I think her title was Chief Everything Else Officer, which is pretty good.

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It's very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So, so she does a lot of really
incredible work and is just...

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the company is very mindful and very like we just...

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we align with their values a lot in terms
of how they're approaching things

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and thinking about the world
and how to make better workplaces.

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And so without spoiling anything, we,
I think we should just get right into it.

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But it was a delight, delight
to talk to her.

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We had a lot of fun and I think we have
taken away a lot from our conversation.

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So we hope you do too.

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Yeah. So let's jump into it.

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Let's do it.

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Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time
to be on the podcast. We're so, so happy to talk to you.

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I think you and I have had many conversations over the years

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and just have dived
a lot into different topics.

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So I want to make sure that we have time
first for our audience who

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might not know who you are and what you do
and what She+ Geeks Out is all about.

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Can you kind of give us a rough overview
to start of, you know, how you got started

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and how She+ Geeks Out
has been successfully doing

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amazing work for the last ten years.

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Oh, you're so kind.

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Well, thank you both for having me.

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It's a it's a pleasure.

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Yeah, I'm happy to share.

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So, yeah, I'm the co-founder and co-CEO of a company called She+ Geeks Out.

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And I also like to explain, you know,
our name is pretty unique.

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So we actually started out as a women

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in tech group in the Boston area
and this was in 2013.

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We actually had our first event,
so a little over a year ago

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where my business partner and I now
business partner and I that's how we met

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and I kind of call myself the Chief Everything Else Officer a little bit. Cause I do a lot of

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Different things I you to do, like,
you know, tech, finance, H.R.

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sales, marketing.

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That's me and my side of my amazing
business partner, Felicia,

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She runs all the DEI training and consulting because in 2017,

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we started adding the DEI training
and consulting to our work.

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And for those who aren't familiar
with the acronym, I don't want to presume

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that means diversity,
equity and inclusion,

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where we teach about unconscious bias,
microaggressions, allyship, identity,

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intersectionality, how that all shows up,
particularly in the workplace.

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And so that's what
my lovely business partner does.

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And so when we started out in 2013,

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we were really focused on events
and we really shifted gears.

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Everything, as you I'm sure know, changed in 2020. Actually,
which is the year that we met. Yes.

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And so now the focus
is really pretty much solely

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on the DEI training and consulting side of things.

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So that's a little bit about us.

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Yeah, fully remote. It's a great time.

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Yes, we are big proponents of the only remote lifestyle.

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As you can see, we're in New Mexico today. So.

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It's wonderful.

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I'm okay. Well, Will, do you have a question?

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Because otherwise I'm going to jump
right in.

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So I’m trying to think of some of the work
we’ve done and DEI before

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that has been either animation work.

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So let me just give you a little rundown
of the background of the podcast.

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So the reason we've run the podcast in
the first place

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is to kind of try to teach people
before they get to our doors

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what to do, what not to do,
what to expect, that kind of thing.

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But it's also on the side of communication
where we're talking about, you know,

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there's some topics
and yours is really particular

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that lend themselves to animation

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and how that sort of communication
that how we sort of work together.

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You've we've done a project for you
in the past.

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We've done a couple other ones that I
maybe you haven't seen around DEI

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Yeah.

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And I kind of wanted to get a sense
of like

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there's crucial communication
happening between your organization

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and do you have members or is it is
it just folks who sign up?

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Like, I want to kind of understand
a little bit of like how it works?

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How do you get your work done?

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Like paint us the Bob Ross picture right now.

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Where we get those happy little trees for you.

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Yeah.

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Thank you for asking the question.

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So so the way we typically work
is primarily it's corporate clients,

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so they typically find us

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through our website and they reach out
and they're interested

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in bringing us into their organization
for training purposes.

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And before the pandemic,
I would say about 90% of their training

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was probably in person.

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And I think that that has flipped
since then.

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We're really fortunate in that a lot of
people found us pretty early on in 2017.

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One of my prior my my prior life

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before S+GO was in tech.

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So building websites. Ao it's great to be able

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to do that, to have that skill
when you are building a business.

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And so, yeah, so we found that
when we first launched our training,

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we wanted to be really intentional
about making sure that we were providing

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thought leadership, that we were showing
that we knew we were talking about.

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And so we wrote a lot of articles.

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So I did a lot of the writing of the blog
posts. Felicia, she's

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she's really the face.

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So this is very is a very odd experience, me being the face of the voice.

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But Felicia is typically the face of the voice.

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So she would go out
and do speaking engagements

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and I would be behind the screen
doing a lot of the writing.

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And that's
how a lot of people would find us,

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thank goodness, were really good
with search engine optimization.

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So that's a blessing.

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So we we actually did attempt a few times
to create community.

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We have had webinars

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that certainly bring people together
as well as virtual meet ups.

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We have our podcast that I think

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it's not really community,
but it's certainly listeners.

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We have our newsletter
where we have people experiencing us

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and that way and it's wonderful
and people reach out and respond.

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We did try a community last year.

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What is time? Really tricky to get people
to talk about it and happy

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to dive more into sort of my philosophy,
sort of

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where the space is right now,
because I think it's certainly evolving.

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But you didn't really sort of
have a lot of conversation.

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So we're like, okay, we get it.

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People are tired.

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So now we have a new community
actually that we just launched,

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which is really focused
on online learning.

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So it's us really just
providing resources to folks.

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So that's different
ways that people can engage with us.

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Yeah, Yeah, that's wonderful.

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I'm I'm curious about
you have kind of a couple different

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audiences that I'm hearing here.

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And in each of those,
I imagine that they have, especially

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with such a deep and purposeful subject
like DEI,

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I'm curious about the communication
challenges that happen there, like

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do you find that there's more resistance
to teaching in some way or another, or

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where do you find sort of those
communication successes that are like

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this opens the door to a whole new realm
that people are excited about,

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and then the opposite side of like
we're trying to communicate,

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but also we can see the defensiveness
or the like, the,

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the freak out of like, Oh, I don't know
if we're ready to talk about this yet.

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Where do you find those challenges?
Come in.

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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So I think the way we like to approach
the work is

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understanding that everybody's
coming into this from different

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experiences, different lived experiences,
different understandings.

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And so when we come into this space,
we honor that.

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So understanding
folks have deep lived experiences.

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Other folks are
maybe really curious about it.

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And then to be perfectly frank,
they're going to be other people

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that are like, I don't know why
I'm doing this, Why does it even matter?

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I just want to get my job done and like
then go back and hang out with my kids.

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You know?

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So an understanding that I think, yeah,
you do absolutely meet resistance.

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And there's a couple of ways
that we talk about approaching this.

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First of all, being honest right?

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This is this space that we're living in. An understanding for...

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If it's so, if it's not a mandatory training, you'll usually get people who are

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curious and

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ready to go for the trainings
that maybe are mandatory.

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That's when you sort of meet,
I think, a little bit more resistance.

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And when that happens, you know, we

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we do use a couple of visuals
around talking through some of this.

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So one is a visual that we use
in the beginning

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of our workshops typically,

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which is if you can envision
three circles, a small circle,

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which is your comfort zone,
a larger circle, which is your

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learning zone, and then a larger circle,
which is your panic zone.

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We talk through that and we say, folks,
you know,

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if you stay in your comfort zone,
you're not going to really learn anything.

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If you get that panic zone, you're
definitely not going to learn anything

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because your brain's going to shut down
and not be interested.

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So we want to keep folks focused on that learning zone or that learning edge
So that's one way that we do it.

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And then of course, as our facilitators go through the workshop,

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there are going to be moments

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of discomfort, which we also acknowledge
upfront that that can happen.

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And, and,

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and we do refer to the pause framework,
which is what we actually worked with

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you on as a way to address
some of that resistance

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that can come up for really anyone,
whether you're curious or not.

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You know, it's, it's,
it's, it's a tough subject.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Yeah.

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Do you feel like, sorry, do you feel like

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most of the people you're working with
are like

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right on the edge of that panic zone?

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Because I feel like everyone's
anxiety is like turned up to 20 right now.

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What are you talking about, Will?

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There's no mental health crisis in this country.

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I never heard of it.

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Yeah.

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You know, I think that it is really
it is a challenge.

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I think that there are a lot of people
who are struggling with it.

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And I think workplace dynamics

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in general outside of DEI,
I think are just they're in a new

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we're just we're just entering
this completely new phase.

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I think COVID set it off.

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It's probably been boiling
under the surface for a while,

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but it's all sort of coming out
and coming to a head

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where there is just a lot of lack of trust

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and a lot of sort of this understanding of,
you know, I think for a lot of employees,

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it used to be, oh, we're really committed
to this company, We're really invested.

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We we believe in what we're doing
or what we're building,

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to this sort of shift of,
you know, sort of goods for services now.

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And I think what that does
is it creates when we are going in

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and having these workshops
and having these discussions,

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I think they can that can bubble up.

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And I think it does.

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It does.

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Maybe, you know,
our facilitators are incredibly skilled

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and I'm not a facilitator,

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so I just give them so much credit
for the beautiful work that they do

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in really managing that

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line to really help people stay

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in that learning zone as much
as possible and not be in that panic zone.

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And if they are to the very best to find
a way to regulate so they can come back.

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No, that's a great point.

00;13;44;28 - 00;13;49;09
The reason I bring it up, I mean, yeah,
obviously because the world is crazy,

00;13;49;11 - 00;13;53;22
but I do find that sometimes
with a new kind of tool, communication

00;13;53;22 - 00;13;54;23
tool, medium,

00;13;54;23 - 00;13;57;19
something that you've never really done
before, we come across

00;13;57;19 - 00;14;02;04
that a lot in animation, when we're talking
to folks like you who kind of,

00;14;02;06 - 00;14;05;15
you know, might be afraid of something
or don't know if it's actually going

00;14;05;15 - 00;14;08;16
to work or something like that,
They also tend to be like

00;14;08;21 - 00;14;09;24
on the edge of that panic.

00;14;09;24 - 00;14;12;29
So I just want to just like,
okay, how do you bring it back, how do you reel them down

00;14;13;02 - 00;14;15;10
from like, this is not going work, right?

00;14;15;10 - 00;14;17;15
It's building trust and community and...

00;14;17;15 - 00;14;18;22
Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

00;14;18;22 - 00;14;21;00
No, I agree with you, Kathryn.
That was perfect.

00;14;21;00 - 00;14;22;27
I, I think that's absolutely right.

00;14;22;27 - 00;14;26;24
Building trust, showing data,
I think also helps a lot.

00;14;26;24 - 00;14;29;27
And I know that that's probably
something that you both do as well

00;14;30;02 - 00;14;33;20
is is proving the value. You know why...

00;14;33;22 - 00;14;39;13
people's are nervous to spend their time
and money on on a lot of things.

00;14;39;13 - 00;14;42;13
And so how do you show that it's valuable
and how do you trust that

00;14;42;13 - 00;14;46;20
that is going to be a not only
a good product that you're creating,

00;14;46;22 - 00;14;50;16
but also a good working relationship,
which I don't think gets valued enough?

00;14;50;19 - 00;14;50;27
Right?

00;14;50;27 - 00;14;54;29
As a one of the things I love about you
is that it's always been a pleasure

00;14;54;29 - 00;14;57;03
working with you. So yeah, we've.

00;14;57;03 - 00;15;00;05
Always talked about this idea
of like wanting to build

00;15;00;06 - 00;15;04;07
partnerships and relationships
that never feel like just transactional.

00;15;04;07 - 00;15;05;17
Yes! Because there's there's

00;15;05;17 - 00;15;08;23
so much of that in the world
that we do on a day to day basis.

00;15;08;23 - 00;15;09;09
You know, I'm

00;15;09;09 - 00;15;13;06
sure I'm sure hundreds of thousands of
people are shopping on Amazon right now.

00;15;13;08 - 00;15;14;06
So yeah.

00;15;14;06 - 00;15;19;20
But there's there's something so much more
purposeful and meaningful and like,

00;15;19;22 - 00;15;24;10
so people who are excited to embrace that,
that idea...

00;15;24;12 - 00;15;25;27
like we're all for we're like,

00;15;25;27 - 00;15;29;08
yes, let's get into the weeds of this
because it's it's a beautiful thing.

00;15;29;10 - 00;15;33;01
I'm curious because you
you kind of touched on this idea of,

00;15;33;01 - 00;15;35;07
you know, in a lot of the work
that you're doing,

00;15;35;07 - 00;15;40;10
you're kind of in this like mixed toolset
in terms of communication, of trying

00;15;40;10 - 00;15;44;05
to get different ideas
across, trying to, to your point, have

00;15;44;12 - 00;15;47;10
like visual references
that are almost like you're

00;15;47;10 - 00;15;50;29
sort of like a guiding light for everyone
to be like, this is, you know,

00;15;50;29 - 00;15;53;12
you can always refer back to this
in some way.

00;15;53;12 - 00;15;55;21
So I'm kind of curious how,

00;15;55;21 - 00;15;59;16
how do you even decide
which tool to use in certain moments?

00;15;59;16 - 00;16;03;12
And even the idea of like
when you were at the time deciding to use

00;16;03;12 - 00;16;05;20
animation, like how did how did those come about?

00;16;05;20 - 00;16;09;10
Like, how do you make those choices,
especially for a topic like this?

00;16;09;16 - 00;16;11;04
That's such a great question.

00;16;11;04 - 00;16;16;21
And I will defer to my facilitation team
to to to get into the specifics

00;16;16;21 - 00;16;21;26
about communication in those workshops,
which is,

00;16;21;28 - 00;16;24;18
you know,
I think I’ll just say one thing is different

00;16;24;18 - 00;16;27;18
learning styles is of course, a key

00;16;27;19 - 00;16;31;24
component to to understanding
how to communicate because everyone

00;16;31;24 - 00;16;36;02
does have different ways of of processing,
as you both obviously know.

00;16;36;05 - 00;16;37;17
So that that's one aspect

00;16;37;17 - 00;16;41;18
that I'll sort of put over here
because that's not my area of expertise,

00;16;41;21 - 00;16;46;05
but I can share a little bit about
so the broader audience.

00;16;46;05 - 00;16;51;16
So, you know, we do a lot in communicating
via a lot of different media.

00;16;51;22 - 00;16;55;15
So whether that is
we have a podcast as well.

00;16;55;15 - 00;16;59;09
So there's the audio,
there is our blog post.

00;16;59;10 - 00;17;02;11
So we want to make sure
that we have a lot of written content.

00;17;02;15 - 00;17;04;21
We we also use YouTube for it.

00;17;04;21 - 00;17;08;11
We have quick little Ask S+GO videos
to get information out.

00;17;08;14 - 00;17;10;19
We have long form courses.

00;17;10;19 - 00;17;12;26
How we make those choices.

00;17;12;26 - 00;17;16;24
It really depends on what
we're trying to deliver.

00;17;16;26 - 00;17;20;07
So long form
versus short form content, right there

00;17;20;07 - 00;17;23;07
is... how are you going to decide what to do?

00;17;23;14 - 00;17;25;04
Understanding
that there are going to be people

00;17;25;04 - 00;17;28;22
who are going to want that information
differently

00;17;28;24 - 00;17;31;19
with DEI in particular, it's...

00;17;31;19 - 00;17;36;16
it's certainly not impossible,
but it is certainly more challenging

00;17;36;18 - 00;17;41;23
to create short form content communication
because a lot of the comments...

00;17;41;25 - 00;17;44;24
a lot of the learnings are complicated

00;17;44;24 - 00;17;47;24
or they just require
they're just more nuanced.

00;17;47;24 - 00;17;50;29
So a lot of times
they require a little bit more exposition

00;17;51;01 - 00;17;56;25
then a lot of what today's media really loves.

00;17;56;28 - 00;17;58;21
When we got to

00;17;58;21 - 00;18;02;29
deciding about the creating
an animation for the Pause framework.

00;18;02;29 - 00;18;06;27
So our director of training, Fatima Dainkeh,
who is absolutely incredible,

00;18;07;00 - 00;18;09;21
she developed this framework,

00;18;09;21 - 00;18;13;14
which is PAUSE,
which is a P-A-U-S-E, that I can... I'm happy

00;18;13;14 - 00;18;17;00
to explain what each of them means
if that's of interest.

00;18;17;03 - 00;18;22;06
But essentially it's a way for folks, it's
a framework for folks to literally pause

00;18;22;06 - 00;18;26;17
and take a minute when they're in moments
that feel particularly

00;18;26;17 - 00;18;31;16
fraught or stressful
that are around these topics of DEI.

00;18;31;18 - 00;18;33;21
Sure, we could have had it all written down.

00;18;33;21 - 00;18;36;06
We do. We have it in a text.

00;18;36;06 - 00;18;37;09
That's fine.

00;18;37;09 - 00;18;39;13
We could also have had a talking head.

00;18;39;13 - 00;18;43;15
We could have had Fatima just video
say what they mean.

00;18;43;18 - 00;18;46;05
But with these concepts, we really wanted

00;18;46;05 - 00;18;49;20
to push it a little bit
because we wanted it to tell a story.

00;18;49;22 - 00;18;53;01
And this is where I find
where animation comes in so handy.

00;18;53;01 - 00;18;55;08
And it's it's just done so beautifully.

00;18;55;08 - 00;18;59;28
Is that it can it can just take the viewer

00;19;00;02 - 00;19;04;10
deeper, I think, into the understanding
of what the

00;19;04;13 - 00;19;07;13
what the information is
that's trying to be delivered.

00;19;07;13 - 00;19;13;12
So that was how we decided
to do the pause framework as an animation.

00;19;13;14 - 00;19;15;03
Yeah, that's very cool.

00;19;15;03 - 00;19;15;14
Can I? Yeah.

00;19;15;14 - 00;19;18;20
Can I ask a, sorry, can I ask a offshoot question there?

00;19;18;22 - 00;19;19;07
Love it.

00;19;19;07 - 00;19;22;18
Do you ever like
how many metaphors are in there?

00;19;22;18 - 00;19;26;23
Like we've done a DEI
sort of training thing for someone else

00;19;26;23 - 00;19;31;06
and it was in the workplace
and a lot of the themes that we kept

00;19;31;06 - 00;19;33;23
hearing in the conversation was
we don't want to show people,

00;19;33;23 - 00;19;36;20
we don't want to show like,
we don't want to make it super personal

00;19;36;20 - 00;19;39;02
because, you know, everyone's
going to look at it differently.

00;19;39;02 - 00;19;42;06
So how can we show this like DEI thing
differently

00;19;42;06 - 00;19;46;01
in our solution to
that was making them pens and pencils.

00;19;46;03 - 00;19;50;24
So we were kind of talking about
like different writing styles in a way.

00;19;50;25 - 00;19;54;05
Like there are different ways
to approach that.

00;19;54;05 - 00;19;57;28
So have do you find yourself
using metaphors more

00;19;57;28 - 00;20;01;09
and more in these trainings,
or is that not something that happens?

00;20;01;12 - 00;20;02;25
Or do you get right into it?

00;20;02;25 - 00;20;04;23
You're like, Nope, this like is

00;20;04;23 - 00;20;08;19
if I feel like on the flip side of that,
like there's times where it probably calls

00;20;08;19 - 00;20;13;12
for being super direct and literal
just because of the subject matter.

00;20;13;12 - 00;20;17;12
So I'm imagining there's probably like
a place and time for each of those things.

00;20;17;17 - 00;20;18;13
Exactly.

00;20;18;13 - 00;20;18;27
Yeah.

00;20;18;27 - 00;20;22;08
And I would say it is true
if we are talking about something,

00;20;22;08 - 00;20;25;24
...something
particularly tied to an identity.

00;20;25;26 - 00;20;29;01
We would want to be specific about that,
I think.

00;20;29;08 - 00;20;34;04
But you know,
when when we do use imagery, illustrations,

00;20;34;06 - 00;20;37;19
you know, they can be of people
that's usually like non-descript.

00;20;37;19 - 00;20;41;28
One of my favorite illustrations
is is actually a graphic

00;20;41;28 - 00;20;45;19
where it describes the difference
between equity and equality.

00;20;45;22 - 00;20;46;26
I don't know if you've ever seen it.

00;20;46;26 - 00;20;48;21
It's not the one with the baseball field.

00;20;48;21 - 00;20;50;12
That's not a good one to use.

00;20;50;12 - 00;20;54;19
Don't use that one. For the listeners, don’t use that one.

00;20;54;21 - 00;20;56;05
Is not a good one.

00;20;56;05 - 00;20;59;26
But the one that I love is
if you can imagine at the top,

00;20;59;29 - 00;21;01;20
there's there's basically two panels.

00;21;01;20 - 00;21;07;24
The top panel is showing what
equality looks like and it has a bicycle.

00;21;07;24 - 00;21;11;17
Everyone's on a bicycle,
but there's a tall man,

00;21;11;18 - 00;21;15;11
there's a woman, there's
someone with a disability.

00;21;15;14 - 00;21;18;24
There is, I think, a little a child.

00;21;18;24 - 00;21;22;05
And they all have the same adult bike.

00;21;22;08 - 00;21;23;08
So that's equality.

00;21;23;08 - 00;21;25;06
Everyone's been given that bike.

00;21;25;06 - 00;21;27;24
Then on the bottom is equity.

00;21;27;24 - 00;21;32;13
So equity is the same people, but everyone
is given a bike that suits their needs.

00;21;32;13 - 00;21;36;06
So the child has a smaller bike,
the really tall person

00;21;36;06 - 00;21;40;01
has a bigger bike,
the disabled person has a recumbent bike.

00;21;40;04 - 00;21;43;04
And so they all
so that's really what equity is.

00;21;43;05 - 00;21;46;26
And I find that visual to be so powerful

00;21;46;29 - 00;21;49;14
that when as soon as someone sees it,
if they had

00;21;49;14 - 00;21;53;13
any sort of questions
around the difference between the two, it

00;21;53;13 - 00;21;57;04
instantly clears it up
because it's like, Oh, okay, I get it.

00;21;57;10 - 00;21;58;21
That is what equity is.

00;21;58;21 - 00;22;02;25
And then
and then it translates into everything

00;22;02;25 - 00;22;06;15
that we think about in the world,
whether that's in the workplace

00;22;06;18 - 00;22;12;13
or in literally,
you know, on the streets and in our world.

00;22;12;18 - 00;22;16;04
So I think it's a really powerful image.

00;22;16;06 - 00;22;17;09
That's really interesting.

00;22;17;09 - 00;22;17;14
Yeah.

00;22;17;14 - 00;22;18;27
I mean, well, also, you're very good

00;22;18;27 - 00;22;22;05
at just like describing the visual
as, oh, good.

00;22;22;07 - 00;22;23;01
Also. Yeah.

00;22;23;01 - 00;22;26;08
Which is also, I think a key component now
like especially nowadays

00;22;26;09 - 00;22;31;24
and in being mindful of accessibility
and to use descriptors and like words

00;22;31;24 - 00;22;35;10
are just as important as visuals
and finding the, you know, the balance

00;22;35;10 - 00;22;38;29
between the two is a beautiful thing
when it can when you can nail it.

00;22;39;02 - 00;22;40;04
That's a great point.

00;22;40;04 - 00;22;44;08
And I would imagine that that's harder
with animation

00;22;44;11 - 00;22;45;19
in the work that you do, right?

00;22;45;19 - 00;22;46;29
It's easy to describe a picture,

00;22;46;29 - 00;22;49;05
but you saw how long it took me
to describe a picture.

00;22;49;05 - 00;22;50;21
Imagine an animation.

00;22;50;21 - 00;22;51;17
That's it's always

00;22;51;17 - 00;22;55;03
one of the interesting things we find
is that whenever we're working with

00;22;55;03 - 00;22;59;14
like a script and someone comes to us,
they say, This is the idea we have.

00;22;59;14 - 00;23;01;04
This is the script we've written.

00;23;01;04 - 00;23;05;23
A lot of times our job is to kind of read
through the words really deliberately

00;23;05;23 - 00;23;09;20
to say, you know, a lot of this section
that you're going for here,

00;23;09;20 - 00;23;12;07
I totally understand
why you want to say it that way,

00;23;12;07 - 00;23;13;29
but you can just show it in a visual

00;23;13;29 - 00;23;16;26
and then you've eliminated
like some of the the language

00;23;16;26 - 00;23;18;18
in the script
or you've you've shortened the video

00;23;18;18 - 00;23;21;05
in some way or like
and sometimes it's a mix of both.

00;23;21;05 - 00;23;25;09
Sometimes we'll take the written words
and say, okay, well, this is so important.

00;23;25;09 - 00;23;28;09
We need to emphasize it again
through text on screen,

00;23;28;12 - 00;23;30;15
like so that you hear and visually see.

00;23;30;15 - 00;23;35;02
Because I think in a lot of times
you might come across this as well, where

00;23;35;05 - 00;23;38;11
you're finding a balance and like the
webinars and trainings that you're doing,

00;23;38;14 - 00;23;41;08
the balance between showing visuals

00;23;41;08 - 00;23;44;27
and lots of text while somebody's talking

00;23;44;29 - 00;23;47;17
and making sure that like, yes, no one's

00;23;47;17 - 00;23;51;17
spending too much time reading the text
and not hearing what you have to say.

00;23;51;17 - 00;23;54;17
So I imagine you're
you're experiencing that as well.

00;23;54;22 - 00;23;57;13
Exactly.
I mean, that's a huge, huge thing.

00;23;57;13 - 00;24;01;01
I mean, one thing that we talk a lot
about when when facilitating

00;24;01;01 - 00;24;04;18
really anything, but certainly this work

00;24;04;21 - 00;24;08;19
is it's really important to make sure
that you're not just, you know, a body

00;24;08;27 - 00;24;14;05
that's reading off of a slide like, oh,
my gosh, like I'm not interested, right?

00;24;14;05 - 00;24;15;12
Like,

00;24;15;14 - 00;24;17;07
so you want to keep it engaging.

00;24;17;07 - 00;24;21;15
You want to use different tools,
You want to have different visuals and

00;24;21;15 - 00;24;26;18
videos to keep focusing,
especially in the virtual world,

00;24;26;18 - 00;24;30;00
where if you're doing a virtual session,
I mean, my goodness, we're competing

00;24;30;00 - 00;24;34;26
with the world's
knowledge and information and inboxes.

00;24;35;02 - 00;24;37;07
So yeah, we get it.

00;24;37;07 - 00;24;40;03
We're going to keep them entertained. Yes.

00;24;40;03 - 00;24;40;12
You know.

00;24;40;12 - 00;24;43;13
That's because I was going to ask you
the sort of like side question, but

00;24;43;13 - 00;24;48;20
it's like,
how do you make DEI feel fun to learn? how.

00;24;48;22 - 00;24;50;17
Do you put it? I know I have one.

00;24;50;17 - 00;24;51;27
You put it in the metaverse.

00;24;51;27 - 00;24;54;16
Of course. A training you take through the metaverse.

00;24;54;16 - 00;24;58;12
Yeah, you're all in VR headsets in a virtual office.

00;24;58;15 - 00;25;00;02
So authentic, you know.

00;25;00;02 - 00;25;00;17
You know.

00;25;00;17 - 00;25;03;13
It's funny, you're laughing,
but there's actually

00;25;03;13 - 00;25;06;09
there's probably several companies
I know of, at least one

00;25;06;09 - 00;25;10;13
that and I will say back
and I think I was like 2019,

00;25;10;13 - 00;25;14;05
I actually turned to Felicia and I was like,
“Should we get into VR?”

00;25;14;08 - 00;25;18;00
Like,
I feel like this could be a thing because

00;25;18;02 - 00;25;21;16
if you want to get
that simulated experience.

00;25;21;16 - 00;25;21;28
Yeah.

00;25;21;28 - 00;25;25;00
So that's one of the things
about how to keep folks engaged.

00;25;25;02 - 00;25;28;16
Honestly,
it's making it as relevant to the work

00;25;28;22 - 00;25;31;19
that they the
what they are experiencing as possible.

00;25;31;19 - 00;25;34;07
So one thing that's important for us
is making sure

00;25;34;07 - 00;25;36;00
that we're not doing anything
cookie cutter.

00;25;36;00 - 00;25;40;29
So when we deliver a workshop,
there's always going to be some element

00;25;40;29 - 00;25;41;29
that's going to be relevant.

00;25;41;29 - 00;25;44;01
So we're industry agnostic.

00;25;44;01 - 00;25;46;27
So what that means is
we have a conversation with the companies

00;25;46;27 - 00;25;51;05
that we work with and then we learn
about what their needs are.

00;25;51;05 - 00;25;53;01
We learn a little bit about their industry
sometimes.

00;25;53;01 - 00;25;56;26
So one client we had a while
ago is Central Park Conservancy.

00;25;56;28 - 00;25;58;23
We had never worked with

00;25;58;23 - 00;26;02;14
a public parks system,
but they had unique challenges, right?

00;26;02;14 - 00;26;06;22
I mean, in DEI and it was really important

00;26;06;22 - 00;26;10;10
for us to make sure
that we were creating scenarios

00;26;10;12 - 00;26;14;19
that were specific to the parks
and they appreciated that.

00;26;14;19 - 00;26;20;01
And that's how they say, I think,
I don't know about fun, maybe fun?

00;26;20;03 - 00;26;22;13
Certainly engaged. Engaging.

00;26;22;13 - 00;26;23;27
Yeah, Yeah.

00;26;23;27 - 00;26;29;10
I think fun... Fun is such
an interesting word because.

00;26;29;13 - 00;26;30;02
Right.

00;26;30;02 - 00;26;32;03
Like how do you keep it?

00;26;32;03 - 00;26;34;00
How do you keep it fun?

00;26;34;00 - 00;26;38;09
I don't know that that's,
that's a realistic goal, but I do think.

00;26;38;12 - 00;26;41;03
That's probably fair.
Keeping engaged is definitely.

00;26;41;03 - 00;26;42;18
It's a it's a solid question, though.

00;26;42;18 - 00;26;45;29
And I'm like, how do we keep it fun.

00;26;46;02 - 00;26;46;28
...

00;26;46;28 - 00;26;49;07
Going back to this...
circling a little back to this

00;26;49;07 - 00;26;54;11
VR thing, there was a project
we did once that was like a training video

00;26;54;14 - 00;26;57;22
for like workplace safety in a warehouse.

00;26;57;28 - 00;27;00;05
And it was it was all through VR.

00;27;00;05 - 00;27;01;29
So that you were actually... that way.

00;27;01;29 - 00;27;02;29
They could like

00;27;02;29 - 00;27;07;15
they could recreate the environment
with animation so they could say like,

00;27;07;15 - 00;27;09;21
Oh, somebody is about to get hit
by a forklift.

00;27;09;21 - 00;27;11;00
What do you do in this moment?

00;27;11;00 - 00;27;12;15
And so you feel like you were there.

00;27;12;15 - 00;27;16;26
So it again, it's it's so interesting
that like sometimes we'll laugh about it,

00;27;16;26 - 00;27;21;25
but there are like very real practical
applications of every medium

00;27;21;25 - 00;27;25;01
that you can... as long as you know
how to tap into each one of them.

00;27;25;01 - 00;27;26;07
That like

00;27;26;07 - 00;27;30;16
it just allows you to do so much more
than we might have thought otherwise.

00;27;30;24 - 00;27;33;02
Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah.

00;27;33;02 - 00;27;37;08
You talked about long form and short form
content and I just I guess I want to get

00;27;37;08 - 00;27;40;19
a little bit of your strategy in here,
just so that I understand.

00;27;40;19 - 00;27;45;08
Like, who are you like shooting short form
content to versus long form content?

00;27;45;08 - 00;27;49;01
Is it someone who maybe perhaps doesn't

00;27;49;04 - 00;27;51;24
care as much
or is maybe a little bit more removed?

00;27;51;24 - 00;27;55;23
You give them the short form content
because like I'm thinking of like a DEI funnel

00;27;55;29 - 00;27;56;28
in a way, like,

00;27;56;28 - 00;27;59;28
you know, a marketing funnel
where like the at the very top

00;27;59;28 - 00;28;02;08
you have folks
who don't know anything about it

00;28;02;08 - 00;28;05;19
and maybe a short form thing
makes a little bit more sense.

00;28;05;21 - 00;28;08;29
And as soon as you go sort of down
that funnel, you might get more

00;28;08;29 - 00;28;10;04
into the longer form content.

00;28;10;04 - 00;28;13;26
So I'm curious as to
is that what you're doing?

00;28;13;28 - 00;28;15;16
Is that a different...?

00;28;15;16 - 00;28;16;27
I mean, you nailed it.

00;28;16;27 - 00;28;18;04
So that is.

00;28;18;04 - 00;28;20;16
Yeah, that is that's absolutely one.

00;28;20;16 - 00;28;26;08
One aspect of it for sure is getting folks
that maybe are curious,

00;28;26;08 - 00;28;30;06
but you know, it's not a priority
that they can sort of

00;28;30;06 - 00;28;33;14
get into that and then it's possible
that they want to go in deeper.

00;28;33;14 - 00;28;35;20
We, you know, our name is She+ Geeks Out.

00;28;35;20 - 00;28;39;02
We talk about geeking out about things
like so we say

00;28;39;05 - 00;28;41;25
if you want to geek out about stuff,
we've got you covered.

00;28;41;25 - 00;28;43;22
Got a lot of stuff for you.

00;28;43;22 - 00;28;46;22
And then I think there are just folks
that learn differently.

00;28;46;28 - 00;28;50;27
So that's the other reason is
there are or not even learn differently,

00;28;50;27 - 00;28;52;10
but just literally don't have the time.

00;28;52;10 - 00;28;56;12
So they may be super curious, but
they have so many things that are going

00;28;56;12 - 00;29;01;08
on. They just need something that is going
to give them some information

00;29;01;10 - 00;29;02;05
that they're looking.

00;29;02;05 - 00;29;03;08
So the Ask SGO,

00;29;03;08 - 00;29;05;14
The purpose of it is there's you know,
we have like

00;29;05;14 - 00;29;06;27
sort of a frequently asked questions.

00;29;06;27 - 00;29;10;10
We get people sort of asking
the same questions over and over again,

00;29;10;13 - 00;29;12;24
but want to just answer it in video
format. Great.

00;29;12;24 - 00;29;14;19
That's wonderful. We get it.

00;29;14;19 - 00;29;17;19
But there are other folks that, so long...
I consider the podcast right

00;29;17;19 - 00;29;21;12
is a long form content
and so there are people that

00;29;21;14 - 00;29;23;12
don't want to be in front of their screens
anymore.

00;29;23;12 - 00;29;25;29
Wonderful. Take us with you.

00;29;25;29 - 00;29;30;14
Bring your little ear buds
and we'll we'll, we'll travel with you.

00;29;30;14 - 00;29;34;18
And while you're on your walk in,
getting fresh air and then that works out

00;29;34;20 - 00;29;38;20
so it's it's it's really meant
for having people who have just

00;29;38;20 - 00;29;43;03
different needs and then how we choose
the content is really based on

00;29;43;03 - 00;29;47;11
what's feasible, what what are the things
that we can actually provide

00;29;47;11 - 00;29;50;20
that are in smaller
bits versus the longer.

00;29;50;27 - 00;29;55;00
Yeah, it feels like what I feel like
I'm hearing there is there's this idea of

00;29;55;00 - 00;29;58;28
in your marketing strategies and even in
just the, the work that you do, there's

00;29;58;28 - 00;30;03;02
a lot of like meeting people
where they're at so that you can

00;30;03;02 - 00;30;06;02
then adapt to their needs
and then they, they feel

00;30;06;05 - 00;30;06;18
when you,

00;30;06;18 - 00;30;09;16
when you show them this kind of level
of like respective like, okay,

00;30;09;16 - 00;30;10;22
we understand where you are

00;30;10;22 - 00;30;14;06
and we're happy to work with you
to get to this other place like that's

00;30;14;06 - 00;30;18;14
so much more inviting and warm and like,
you know, purposeful

00;30;18;14 - 00;30;22;08
than just saying like, oh,
you might need this 40 years from now.

00;30;22;08 - 00;30;24;24
Like,
it's like if you if you don't need it

00;30;24;24 - 00;30;26;29
now, it's okay
if you do need it here, we got you.

00;30;26;29 - 00;30;30;28
Like, there's just something about that
that I think is really wonderful to see.

00;30;30;28 - 00;30;34;24
So I applaud you for doing that work
because I think I think sometimes

00;30;34;24 - 00;30;39;10
it can seem like more work on the side
of like the communication side

00;30;39;10 - 00;30;43;03
to, like, be like we've had discussions
with different companies

00;30;43;03 - 00;30;44;13
over the years that are like,

00;30;44;13 - 00;30;48;01
how do we really need to put in all these
closed captioning and all this here?

00;30;48;01 - 00;30;51;27
And like, you know, take our blog
and make it short form over here.

00;30;52;04 - 00;30;54;02
It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;30;54;02 - 00;30;56;16
That's important work
if it makes a big difference.

00;30;56;16 - 00;31;00;07
So I think it's a just a testament
to the work that you're doing.

00;31;00;10 - 00;31;01;11
Well, I love this.

00;31;01;11 - 00;31;02;05
Thank you so much.

00;31;02;05 - 00;31;04;24
I'll take in all of those wonderful
compliments.

00;31;04;24 - 00;31;06;16
I always, always.

00;31;06;16 - 00;31;09;29
Are you familiar with the platinum
rule versus the Golden Rule?

00;31;10;01 - 00;31;12;23
No. No. So it's what I'm ready to learn?

00;31;12;23 - 00;31;16;08
Yeah, it's one of my favorite things
that I think about it a lot.

00;31;16;08 - 00;31;18;06
And it's
I think it's related to what you said.

00;31;18;06 - 00;31;22;10
So the golden rules, you know,
treat people how you want to be treated.

00;31;22;12 - 00;31;25;20
The platinum rule is treat people
how they want to be treated.

00;31;25;22 - 00;31;29;09
And when I started out as a people

00;31;29;09 - 00;31;32;21
manager many, many moons ago,
I was terrible at it.

00;31;32;21 - 00;31;38;01
Absolute garbage. You know, partly
my fault, partly the fall of the company,

00;31;38;01 - 00;31;42;17
that for not giving me any training,
which is very true, I had a lot of places.

00;31;42;19 - 00;31;45;19
But as I've evolved and learned more,

00;31;45;21 - 00;31;50;19
the Platinum Rule has always stuck with
me and I think about that

00;31;50;21 - 00;31;53;04
with regard to everything that I do,

00;31;53;04 - 00;31;56;29
is do your best to be empathetic
to what is happening on the other

00;31;56;29 - 00;32;02;09
side of the screen or the desk
or the table or wherever you are,

00;32;02;11 - 00;32;04;10
because you have no idea

00;32;04;10 - 00;32;08;10
what stories are happening,
what is going on with that other person.

00;32;08;13 - 00;32;12;08
All you can do is lead with empathy
and try to be...

00;32;12;10 - 00;32;16;21
try to recognize where that folk,
where that person's coming from

00;32;16;24 - 00;32;20;07
and provide information
and be as helpful as you can.

00;32;20;10 - 00;32;23;10
If we all did,
that would probably have world peace.

00;32;23;11 - 00;32;26;01
It would be nice. It would be lovely...

00;32;26;01 - 00;32;27;18
Wouldn’t we all love that. Yes.

00;32;27;18 - 00;32;27;29
Yeah.

00;32;27;29 - 00;32;31;22
I think that this touches
a little bit on a question I have because

00;32;31;25 - 00;32;33;13
you're kind of tapping into it already.

00;32;33;13 - 00;32;37;19
But, you know, in this in this idea
of doing communications work, trying

00;32;37;19 - 00;32;43;08
to get your message out there, what advice
might you give to other organizations

00;32;43;08 - 00;32;48;05
who are looking to do like any,
you know, marketing communication efforts?

00;32;48;05 - 00;32;51;16
But even within animation, like
where would you recommend they

00;32;51;18 - 00;32;54;11
how they think about it
or how they approach it

00;32;54;11 - 00;32;57;13
if it's something they've never done
before, what advice might you have?

00;32;57;14 - 00;32;58;29
Yeah, yeah.

00;32;58;29 - 00;33;00;19
I mean,
I don't think I'm going to say anything

00;33;00;19 - 00;33;05;02
that's particularly brilliant here
or surprising.

00;33;05;02 - 00;33;07;03
You just blew me away with the Platinum Rule.

00;33;07;03 - 00;33;07;29
I know. I did it.

00;33;07;29 - 00;33;10;13
That was it. Yes, yes, yes.

00;33;10;13 - 00;33;11;27
Interview over.

00;33;11;27 - 00;33;14;15
oh right the like,
what is it, like a one hit wonder?

00;33;14;15 - 00;33;16;14
Exactly, exactly, exactly.

00;33;16;14 - 00;33;21;14
I did it. We’re done. Go out on top. Yes.

00;33;21;17 - 00;33;21;26
Yeah.

00;33;21;26 - 00;33;24;09
I mean I think
that there's a lot of practical advice

00;33;24;09 - 00;33;27;08
that I think
we're all pretty familiar with, which is,

00;33;27;09 - 00;33;29;09
you know, just be really intentional,

00;33;29;09 - 00;33;32;06
really understand
why you're doing what you're doing.

00;33;32;06 - 00;33;34;23
I just think that we can kind of get shiny

00;33;34;23 - 00;33;37;26
ball syndrome and be like,
Oh, I want to do this thing.

00;33;37;26 - 00;33;42;07
It looks really cool, whether it's VR
or animation or whatever it is.

00;33;42;09 - 00;33;43;27
But be really clear.

00;33;43;27 - 00;33;48;18
And also think about the longevity,
because I think when you're investing in

00;33;48;18 - 00;33;51;18
something like animation,
it is a little different than when you're

00;33;51;18 - 00;33;53;22
writing a blog post
where you can just like

00;33;53;22 - 00;33;57;11
that change up the words that you needed
to write or the link

00;33;57;14 - 00;34;01;06
When you're committing to animation, it's
something that you know, ideally

00;34;01;06 - 00;34;04;05
you're going to want it to last
for a while

00;34;04;08 - 00;34;08;19
and think about what its applications are
and why you're doing it,

00;34;08;19 - 00;34;12;06
and ideally partner
with some really smart folks

00;34;12;08 - 00;34;13;28
that I happened to be talking with.

00;34;13;28 - 00;34;17;04
But I think that that intentionality piece
we we talk a lot

00;34;17;04 - 00;34;20;04
I think in business about like
what are your goals

00;34;20;11 - 00;34;24;03
but and sometimes
it can sound nebulous

00;34;24;05 - 00;34;27;08
but I think if you can really ground it
in practical terms,

00;34;27;08 - 00;34;30;08
really, what is your goal
for this form of communication?

00;34;30;08 - 00;34;34;04
Why are you doing...
If your instinct first is,

00;34;34;04 - 00;34;37;04
I want to do an animation,
but I'm not sure what I want to do it on.

00;34;37;11 - 00;34;39;24
Well, ask yourself why? What?

00;34;39;24 - 00;34;40;21
What is it?

00;34;40;21 - 00;34;43;11
What is it
that you're trying to achieve here?

00;34;43;11 - 00;34;45;25
And then sort of try to work the other way
around.

00;34;45;25 - 00;34;48;22
Like I said,
nothing sort of like mind blowing, but.

00;34;48;22 - 00;34;51;15
Yeah, crucial. Yeah.

00;34;51;17 - 00;34;54;04
No, these are things that we need
reminders of too.

00;34;54;04 - 00;34;57;04
I think a lot of times it's
especially in the, in the,

00;34;57;10 - 00;35;00;06
the day and age of like feeling like

00;35;00;06 - 00;35;05;14
the need to just pump out content
as much as possible is like

00;35;05;16 - 00;35;09;01
there's that I think we go into that panic
zone of like,

00;35;09;08 - 00;35;10;28
how are we going to put out
all this content?

00;35;10;28 - 00;35;12;28
Okay, let's throw this here,
let's throw this here.

00;35;12;28 - 00;35;17;21
Like without that, that time and care pause to think about,

00;35;17;24 - 00;35;22;16
is this the right decision like it's I
so I applaud you for like

00;35;22;19 - 00;35;25;07
just everything that you're doing
because I think that there's

00;35;25;07 - 00;35;28;07
there's something really important
about needing

00;35;28;09 - 00;35;32;06
and honoring the time
it takes to do this type of work.

00;35;32;08 - 00;35;32;28
Thank you.

00;35;32;28 - 00;35;34;00
It's it's great.

00;35;34;00 - 00;35;37;25
You know, I feel very fortunate to

00;35;37;27 - 00;35;38;21
not only

00;35;38;21 - 00;35;42;14
do this
work, but also the fact that we do.

00;35;42;14 - 00;35;45;23
I personally love being able
to work in different media

00;35;45;23 - 00;35;49;20
and different forms of communication
because I get bored really easily.

00;35;49;26 - 00;35;54;11
So so it's really nice to be able
to to do different things

00;35;54;11 - 00;35;59;14
and to challenge myself in different ways
and and have our our team

00;35;59;14 - 00;36;03;23
to sort of grow in all these ways as well.

00;36;03;25 - 00;36;06;29
So I want to just quickly circle
back to the

00;36;06;29 - 00;36;10;16
I know that's a business term
I love every time I say it, but it's.

00;36;10;16 - 00;36;13;13
No, let's get some synergies
going. I'm ready.

00;36;13;13 - 00;36;17;20
Yes. So I want to just acknowledge earlier
you mentioned, too,

00;36;17;20 - 00;36;22;28
that you could kind of touch on sort of
where the DEI space is right now.

00;36;23;00 - 00;36;23;25
Oh, yeah.

00;36;23;25 - 00;36;27;14
So I want to just leave space for that
because I think that that's important

00;36;27;14 - 00;36;29;27
for people to hear,
because we've had conversations

00;36;29;27 - 00;36;33;19
over the years
with different folks in in many,

00;36;33;25 - 00;36;36;19
I guess, other industries as well,
but mostly in the animation space.

00;36;36;19 - 00;36;40;05
And we're asking questions
like when budget cuts happen,

00;36;40;05 - 00;36;43;04
how do you make sure that DEI is not cut
from that budget like.

00;36;43;04 - 00;36;46;25
So there's I'm kind of curious where
in our current moment in time

00;36;46;25 - 00;36;49;11
you're seeing the space overall?

00;36;49;13 - 00;36;51;24
Yeah, it has been a wild ride.

00;36;51;24 - 00;36;56;11
So, you know, back in 2017
when we started this work,

00;36;56;11 - 00;37;01;00
I like to call it like it was
it was the Wild West

00;37;01;03 - 00;37;04;06
and I mean not that this work
hadn't been being done and called

00;37;04;06 - 00;37;07;27
something else
multicultural work, whatever, for decades,

00;37;07;29 - 00;37;10;25
but it was kind of the Wild West,
you know, not no real

00;37;10;25 - 00;37;15;13
formal education around it,
nothing really specific.

00;37;15;15 - 00;37;17;22
And then and that was evolving.

00;37;17;22 - 00;37;21;18
And there were more programs,
more certificates, more master's programs.

00;37;21;18 - 00;37;24;29
You're seeing more of that,
you know, those concentrations.

00;37;25;02 - 00;37;27;16
And then in 2020,
with the murder of George Floyd

00;37;27;16 - 00;37;32;17
and so many others, what we found was
there was a gold rush

00;37;32;19 - 00;37;35;19
and it went from, you know,

00;37;35;21 - 00;37;41;07
a lot of really dedicated people
doing it to a lot of folks who maybe saw

00;37;41;15 - 00;37;44;25
financial opportunities and ran with that

00;37;44;25 - 00;37;47;25
and in a variety of different ways.

00;37;47;28 - 00;37;51;06
And then in
I would say over the past a year

00;37;51;07 - 00;37;54;22
or so, there was a downslide.

00;37;54;25 - 00;37;57;20
Not only was the market sort of saturated,

00;37;57;20 - 00;38;00;11
but there was fatigue, diversity, fatigue.

00;38;00;11 - 00;38;02;28
And I think that that still exists.

00;38;02;28 - 00;38;07;22
And it has been compounded
with all of the news in the world

00;38;07;24 - 00;38;11;17
that's happening,
whether it's I'll just pick two big items,

00;38;11;20 - 00;38;16;07
you know, climate change and Dobbsl. I think
that are both,

00;38;16;07 - 00;38;20;06
I think, related to the work that we do
and critically important.

00;38;20;09 - 00;38;22;04
So There's fatigue.

00;38;22;04 - 00;38;24;14
Meanwhile, there are so many crises.

00;38;24;14 - 00;38;27;02
I'm not even going to talk
about the politics right now.

00;38;27;02 - 00;38;29;26
There are so many crises
that are happening.

00;38;29;26 - 00;38;34;15
And I think people
the workplace is evolving.

00;38;34;17 - 00;38;35;15
I think

00;38;35;15 - 00;38;38;10
with also the advent of remote work

00;38;38;10 - 00;38;41;22
because of COVID and that shift happening.

00;38;41;25 - 00;38;46;19
And then I think there is in a way,
an awakening where folks are realizing

00;38;46;21 - 00;38;51;02
that companies aren't necessarily
going to care

00;38;51;02 - 00;38;56;14
as much about their employees as they
maybe said that they did in 2020, 2021.

00;38;56;16 - 00;38;57;07
Right.

00;38;57;07 - 00;39;00;28
And that's that's
been proven out with layoffs and with cuts

00;39;00;28 - 00;39;04;11
on benefits, with sort of heartless acts

00;39;04;12 - 00;39;06;05
I think.

00;39;06;05 - 00;39;10;05
Yeah, we've seen this very
greatly recently on the animation side,

00;39;10;05 - 00;39;15;00
I think it was something like 16,000 jobs
have been cut over the last year or so.

00;39;15;00 - 00;39;17;26
So, yeah, totally understand
where you're coming from.

00;39;17;26 - 00;39;18;24
Exactly. Right.

00;39;18;24 - 00;39;24;17
So how, so if you think about it,
it behooves companies to continue to

00;39;24;17 - 00;39;27;21
do this work because employees

00;39;27;29 - 00;39;32;12
are caring less and less about companies.

00;39;32;14 - 00;39;34;27
So I think we're in this

00;39;34;27 - 00;39;39;07
really interesting time where I think
not only are we seeing companies

00;39;39;07 - 00;39;43;06
sort of scale back their efforts around DEI.
Not all of them,

00;39;43;06 - 00;39;44;09
mind you,

00;39;44;09 - 00;39;46;22
there are definitely still companies
that are totally committed to it

00;39;46;22 - 00;39;49;05
because they get it
and they know that it's important.

00;39;49;05 - 00;39;54;00
Yeah, I think you also have
the compounded factor of employees

00;39;54;00 - 00;39;57;10
caring less about the workplace

00;39;57;12 - 00;40;01;19
because they why would they care about
the workplace when they're focused on

00;40;01;21 - 00;40;05;11
They've got to focus on their home
and their family

00;40;05;12 - 00;40;08;16
because that's the stuff that matters
and it ends up becoming it's

00;40;08;16 - 00;40;13;01
more of a transactional relationship,
I think, within companies now.

00;40;13;08 - 00;40;15;26
So I think there's going to be
some sort of a reckoning.

00;40;15;26 - 00;40;19;23
And I think that's what we're sort
of facing now, is employers and employees

00;40;19;26 - 00;40;25;08
needing to find a way to trust
each other again, which has been broken.

00;40;25;14 - 00;40;29;07
And then I think that there's
a possibility that DEI in whatever

00;40;29;07 - 00;40;34;06
format, whether it's its current iteration
or it evolves to something else,

00;40;34;08 - 00;40;37;28
I think that will still need to happen
because,

00;40;38;01 - 00;40;41;16
you know, until the robots take over,
we've got humans.

00;40;41;19 - 00;40;43;05
Yes. No.

00;40;43;05 - 00;40;45;11
It's a great point
because I think that's also true, too.

00;40;45;11 - 00;40;48;24
Like a lot of what you were saying
terms of what's been happening

00;40;48;24 - 00;40;52;11
is sort of parallel on our side with like
what's happening with AI and like,

00;40;52;18 - 00;40;53;28
you know, everything's evolving.

00;40;53;28 - 00;40;57;18
So it's it is interesting to kind of

00;40;57;20 - 00;41;01;03
see everything that's happening,
especially as like

00;41;01;05 - 00;41;04;03
as owners
and trying to understand, okay, how do

00;41;04;03 - 00;41;08;13
how do we as as one company
navigate this very big landscape.

00;41;08;13 - 00;41;12;00
So yeah, I appreciate the transparency
that you're sharing.

00;41;12;00 - 00;41;15;16
So I think there's there's a lot there
that I think

00;41;15;18 - 00;41;20;06
I think is helpful for people to see that
it's yeah, you're very conscious of

00;41;20;06 - 00;41;25;28
and it's not just a going back to that
idea of like DEI is not a transaction, it's

00;41;26;00 - 00;41;30;15
Yeah, it's a change in like
in the way that companies

00;41;30;15 - 00;41;35;17
have been run for a long time and that's,
Yeah, that can be very Panic-Zony.

00;41;35;17 - 00;41;38;18
But yeah very Panic-Zony. Yeah.

00;41;38;18 - 00;41;40;22
Yeah that's my new term now.

00;41;40;22 - 00;41;41;13
I love it.

00;41;41;13 - 00;41;46;05
Well and you think about it
I mean companies have been making

00;41;46;07 - 00;41;48;27
millions and millions
and millions of dollars

00;41;48;27 - 00;41;52;12
with still primarily white men
in charge of everything.

00;41;52;14 - 00;41;56;05
So I think there's this sort of short
term view of like,

00;41;56;05 - 00;41;57;29
well, it's just going to be this way.

00;41;57;29 - 00;42;01;01
Like while the demographics are shifting,
I think.

00;42;01;01 - 00;42;02;02
Mark Cuban,

00;42;02;02 - 00;42;06;29
I don't know if you saw any of that debate
between Mark Cuban and Elon Musk.

00;42;07;01 - 00;42;09;29
Elon is not one of my favorite
people. I’m just going to have

00;42;09;29 - 00;42;11;29
to, you know, put it out there.

00;42;11;29 - 00;42;14;00
I feel very comfortable saying that
because I don't

00;42;14;00 - 00;42;18;00
I think I'm pretty small potatoes.
I don't think he's going to come after me.

00;42;18;02 - 00;42;18;16
Yeah.

00;42;18;16 - 00;42;18;29
Yeah.

00;42;18;29 - 00;42;21;29
So but he sort of, you know, he made some
so he said

00;42;21;29 - 00;42;24;29
DEI must DIE, right.

00;42;25;05 - 00;42;29;26
Lovely, pithy, little annoying statement
And Mark Cuban, who for the

00;42;29;26 - 00;42;33;19
for those of you who may not know him
was, you know, he's a shark tank

00;42;33;22 - 00;42;39;06
entrepreneur, millionaire, Dallas
Mavericks owner, blah, blah, blah.

00;42;39;08 - 00;42;40;02
He sold. It.

00;42;40;02 - 00;42;43;02
He did just sell it. He just sold it, right? Yeah.

00;42;43;07 - 00;42;45;13
It was a great interview with him.

00;42;45;13 - 00;42;48;04
I highly recommend the Trevor
Noah podcast.

00;42;48;04 - 00;42;48;26
Yeah. Oh yes.

00;42;48;26 - 00;42;50;11
Yeah, definitely. Right now.

00;42;50;11 - 00;42;52;05
Yeah. What now. Exactly. It's great.

00;42;52;05 - 00;42;55;20
And he was on there
and they were talking about DEI

00;42;55;20 - 00;42;59;05
in the future DEI
because he basically was like,

00;42;59;08 - 00;43;03;12
Elon, you're an idiot because the future is DEI.

00;43;03;15 - 00;43;06;09
Yes Yes, we
this is the world that we live in.

00;43;06;09 - 00;43;11;03
The generations after us are like,
What are you even talking...

00;43;11;03 - 00;43;15;27
Why would there be these crazy power
dynamics that don't make any sense?

00;43;15;27 - 00;43;18;08
Like, we need to get it together? So.

00;43;18;08 - 00;43;19;25
So, yeah.

00;43;19;25 - 00;43;20;14
Thank you. Thank you.

00;43;20;14 - 00;43;22;07
One last question, and it's a big one.

00;43;22;07 - 00;43;24;02
And so anyway, we can cut if it doesn’t work.

00;43;24;02 - 00;43;25;06
Yeah.

00;43;25;06 - 00;43;28;21
I'm seeing a lot of parallels
between how you describe

00;43;28;23 - 00;43;31;20
how DEI training started

00;43;31;20 - 00;43;36;08
and like how animation is currently.

00;43;36;10 - 00;43;39;05
Like there
is this like old way of doing it

00;43;39;05 - 00;43;43;09
that like Disney built,
but then all these like new tools

00;43;43;09 - 00;43;47;25
started to come up and different ways
of working started to become available

00;43;47;25 - 00;43;51;26
and more accessible to people like us
and other folks who are running

00;43;51;26 - 00;43;54;05
maybe their own smaller shops.

00;43;54;08 - 00;43;56;08
And there

00;43;56;08 - 00;44;00;08
seems to be, as time goes
on, these like new tools

00;44;00;08 - 00;44;04;10
that keep popping up and making
and maybe this is not true,

00;44;04;10 - 00;44;09;04
but I'm making a connection to like
DEI’s like core things.

00;44;09;04 - 00;44;12;04
Are they changing as time goes on?

00;44;12;04 - 00;44;16;19
Because like, the way we work
in, the tools that we use are changing.

00;44;16;21 - 00;44;19;08
They're changing internally
as like standalone tools,

00;44;19;08 - 00;44;23;09
but also other new tools are coming in
and changing the way we work. A.I.

00;44;23;09 - 00;44;24;11
for example.

00;44;24;11 - 00;44;29;10
So is that happening at like
sort of a more conversational level

00;44;29;10 - 00;44;32;14
with DEI where like something is,
you know, something's the norm.

00;44;32;14 - 00;44;36;12
This is how we talk about the DEI
and then some other new thing pops up

00;44;36;12 - 00;44;40;28
and then you have to like,
adjust your whole training set. So

00;44;41;00 - 00;44;41;27
yeah.

00;44;41;27 - 00;44;45;26
Oh, okay.

00;44;45;29 - 00;44;49;15
DEI is is ever evolving.

00;44;49;15 - 00;44;51;26
Got it. As humans evolve as generations.

00;44;51;26 - 00;44;56;21
So I'll give you one
example is like so She+ Geeks Out, right

00;44;56;23 - 00;45;02;21
is women in tech and then we learn more
about gender fluidity

00;45;02;23 - 00;45;04;28
and we're like, well,
how do we bring in folks

00;45;04;28 - 00;45;08;18
that are non-binary, that are trans women
that, you know, we want to make sure

00;45;08;18 - 00;45;11;16
that we're being inclusive
and we really struggle with it

00;45;11;16 - 00;45;14;25
and so we decided to add a plus
after “She” to

00;45;14;25 - 00;45;18;15
to that's why we did that was to sort it
to bring that in together.

00;45;18;17 - 00;45;22;02
And I will give credit to Molly Walters
in a conversation in case she is listening

00;45;22;02 - 00;45;23;03
or watching this.

00;45;23;03 - 00;45;25;25
She she and
I had a conversation in front of a

00;45;25;25 - 00;45;28;00
I think it was like a Lesbians Who Tech conference.

00;45;28;00 - 00;45;30;11
We had a conversation and she was like,
why don't you add a plus?

00;45;30;11 - 00;45;33;06
And I was like, That's a brilliant idea.

00;45;33;06 - 00;45;35;21
So I give her credit for that

00;45;35;23 - 00;45;38;13
and and to follow that and that,
that has been great.

00;45;38;13 - 00;45;42;23
We we still have that to follow that we,
we for a little while

00;45;42;23 - 00;45;46;05
there decided to get rid of the E
in women and

00;45;46;09 - 00;45;49;08
and woman and put an X there instead

00;45;49;08 - 00;45;52;17
and when we did that we learned
that we were actually alienating

00;45;52;17 - 00;45;56;27
some other folks who were really trans
women who were like, No,

00;45;56;27 - 00;46;02;08
I'm actually I want the I want the A like
I am a woman like and I don't want it.

00;46;02;10 - 00;46;03;21
I don't want to change that.

00;46;03;21 - 00;46;07;26
Don't don't change that to make it
not that. That's an example.

00;46;07;26 - 00;46;10;13
So it it's really individual right

00;46;10;13 - 00;46;12;19
because you'll have a group of folks
that feel that way

00;46;12;19 - 00;46;14;21
and then you'll have another group
that feels this way.

00;46;14;21 - 00;46;19;25
So you try to understand that and provide
context, even using gender pronouns

00;46;19;28 - 00;46;23;11
on the regular, there are folks
that they're like, I will never forget.

00;46;23;11 - 00;46;28;02
I had a conversation with a woman
who said, You know, I have been fighting

00;46;28;02 - 00;46;32;15
all my life to be in leadership
and not have it be about my gender

00;46;32;22 - 00;46;36;26
and just respect me
for like being a person doing this work.

00;46;36;29 - 00;46;40;04
And now you're asking me to, like,
constantly refer to my gender and I don't

00;46;40;04 - 00;46;41;20
want to do that.

00;46;41;22 - 00;46;43;11
So it's it's always nuanced.

00;46;43;11 - 00;46;44;14
Yeah, it's always nuanced.

00;46;44;14 - 00;46;48;20
It's always complex, and
it is absolutely evolving all the time.

00;46;48;20 - 00;46;50;09
Those are just like a few examples.

00;46;50;09 - 00;46;52;13
I have like 30 more, but no.

00;46;52;13 - 00;46;54;05
Yeah, no. That makes perfect sense.

00;46;54;05 - 00;46;55;04
Yeah. Yeah.

00;46;55;04 - 00;46;57;13
I think we're trying
to be mindful of your time

00;46;57;13 - 00;46;59;03
because I feel like
we could probably go for hours.

00;46;59;03 - 00;47;00;12
Oh, you're so sweet. We.

00;47;00;12 - 00;47;01;01
Yeah, we could.

00;47;01;01 - 00;47;03;22
We I mean, we, we probably a lot
to talk about with Elon Musk.

00;47;03;22 - 00;47;07;04
But that'll be another podcast
for another day.

00;47;07;06 - 00;47;10;26
But yes, so in the midst of things,
if you know, if people are wanting

00;47;10;26 - 00;47;14;26
to learn more about She+ Geeks Out
and where to go and they're saying,

00;47;14;26 - 00;47;17;03
you know what,
I need to get in on the DEI training

00;47;17;03 - 00;47;19;29
or I need to be part of a community,
where can they go?

00;47;19;29 - 00;47;23;28
How can they either follow you
or contact you or anything of that nature

00;47;23;28 - 00;47;25;29
that you're that you're comfortable
with? Yeah.

00;47;25;29 - 00;47;28;10
Yeah. Well,
thank you for asking. Definitely.

00;47;28;10 - 00;47;33;10
SheGeeksOut.com is the number one best place,
and there's offshoots from there.

00;47;33;10 - 00;47;38;26
We have SGOlearning.com, which is
our online asynchronous learning platform.

00;47;38;28 - 00;47;39;25
You can find me

00;47;39;25 - 00;47;44;23
I actually my name is incredibly generic
so you have to like Google Rachel Murray.

00;47;44;23 - 00;47;48;02
She geeks out really to find me
but I'm on LinkedIn

00;47;48;04 - 00;47;53;10
and we're also on LinkedIn, YouTube,
Instagram and the pod's so... Awesome.

00;47;53;10 - 00;47;55;23
Yeah. What's the what's the podcast called?

00;47;55;23 - 00;47;58;23
The She Geeks Out podcast. Oh Ok.

00;47;59;01 - 00;47;59;26
Love it.

00;47;59;26 - 00;48;03;05
Best branding pretty clear. That’s pretty clear.

00;48;03;07 - 00;48;04;03
That's all you need.

00;48;04;03 - 00;48;06;00
That's all. You need.

00;48;06;00 - 00;48;06;23
That's amazing.

00;48;06;23 - 00;48;06;27
Well,

00;48;06;27 - 00;48;11;04
yeah thank you so much for taking the time
today for this wonderful conversation.

00;48;11;04 - 00;48;14;09
I felt like it was very it's very organic
every time we talk to you

00;48;14;09 - 00;48;16;16
that it's there's just like we have a flow

00;48;16;16 - 00;48;19;08
that I'm just like, oh, yeah, let's
talk about this. Okay, let's go on that.

00;48;19;08 - 00;48;21;07
Yeah, it's a. Wonderful thing.

00;48;21;07 - 00;48;22;01
Yeah.

00;48;22;01 - 00;48;23;11
I had a great time.

00;48;23;11 - 00;48;25;23
Yeah. Thank you.
And we'll we'll talk to you soon.

00;48;25;23 - 00;48;27;00
Sounds great.

00;48;27;00 - 00;48;27;28
Thank you.

00;48;27;28 - 00;48;33;17
Bye bye.

00;48;33;19 - 00;48;36;26
This episode was brought to you
by E-Media.

00;48;36;28 - 00;48;38;16
Our producer is Jackson Foote.

00;48;38;16 - 00;48;41;21
Our music was created by Hidden
and licensed through PremiumBeat.com.

00;48;41;26 - 00;48;44;12
And until next time. Stay honest.

00;48;44;12 - 00;48;45;09
Stay creative.

00;48;45;09 - 00;48;47;00
Stay open. Open Pixel Studios.

00;48;47;00 - 00;48;48;27
We will see you in the next episode.